JIMMY:

Another story is obviously the one about Yengeni. MARION: I think there are a number of stories within the Yengeni story to unpack. The tussle in the ANC over his fate; him lashing back at the Scorpions for being too 'white' in their investigation; and I thought Grogan's cartoon in The Independent captured the nervous energy in Parliament at the moment around the probe. There's been a lot of lobbying and shifting and introspection going on, coupled by the fact that the 2001 Register of Assets - which is the book which details gifts and benefits - has just been tabled for this year. Also in The Independent a story that Jayendra Naidoo, who is the chief negotiator of the arms deal, has a stake in a company which may benefit from the arms deal. Also, in the Eastern Cape, a story that didn't really catch the headlines - the suspension of a director of the Minerals & Energy Department, John Carr, after a complaint by the Coega Development Corporation that he might be blocking their plans to get that port going. NIGEL: Well, talking about that brings us to the one story which seems to have swept everything else by the wayside this week, and that is Mr Yengeni. I mean, umpteen stories linked to that, but arrested by the Scorpions for corruption, forgery, perjury and fraud. He's out on ten thousand rands bail at the moment. And we are told to watch this space, that there's loads more. What is the buzz round the grapevine, Marion Edmunds?

MARION:

In terms of there being more charges against Yengeni, I'm not sure exactly.

NIGEL:

No, but others.

MARION:

Oh, other arrests. Well, again, I'm very reluctant to say yes, it's definitely going to happen, because it's the sort of wild speculation that has surfaced around the arms deal since the investigation first started. So it may well be that there are others on a list, but I'd say the situation is fairly fluid at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if people are watching how this one pans out before they make a decision on another move.

What is interesting is that a report on the arms deal by the Auditor-General's office is due in a couple of weeks' time. I think it would be very difficult for them to table something at this point when there are still so many questions hanging in the air. You can even see, from the front page of The Sunday Independent today... There's a question mark about Jayendra Naidoo and his shareholding of a company which may be linked ...

NIGEL:

As the chief negotiator.

MARION:

Yes, as the chief negotiator and somebody who was privy to a huge range of details and sort of pulled the deal together in final negotiations.

TERRY:

But Andrew Finestein came on the air and actually mentioned the names that had come up at SCOPA, that obviously need to be looked into and may well arise, including the former Defence Minister.

MARION:

I'd say the prosecuting team is looking at that. That's not a secret. I mean, that's been pretty well known, that they're on the list of people to be 'talked to'. Now, how far they're going to go, and whether it will be as dramatic, with a series of charges or an arrest, I don't know. I think this is where there's still a question mark about how far the Director of Public Prosecutions is going to push and how far the Auditor-General's going to push. Because obviously you can see also from the Justice Minister's comment - from Penuell Maduna's comment - that there is a desire to try and pull the arms deal away from the Yengeni scandal and say it still has integrity.

TERRY:

Putting it politely, though, that was a most unfortunate comment for a Justice Minister to make, and particularly a Justice Minister who happens to be a lawyer. It's totally prejudicial of the case. I found it unbelievable.

MARION:

Yes, I think everybody's been puzzling over this. There have been various interpretations of the comment. I think possibly what he was hinting at, or trying to get at, is that the arms deal contracts could be cancelled if a conviction comes from a corruption charge, but only when it relates to the contracting parties.

Now, I think what he was trying to indicate was that Yengeni, as a politician on the fringes of the deal - a mover and shaker, no doubt, a sort of manipulator of opinion, possibly - he wasn't one of the signed contracting parties, and therefore the contracts remain intact.

TERRY:

Well, the essence of the fraud is that he actually defrauded EADS and Michael Worfel by letting on or implying that he could actually influence when he couldn't. But the interesting thing is that the Germans are going to come into this now...

NIGEL:

Well, that's what I wanted to ask you about. But, Jimmy, is this definitely, would you say, the end of the career for Tony Yengeni, the end of the road?

JIMMY:

Well, Tony Yengeni indicated in an interview with City Press that he basically wants out, he wants to quit politics totally after the end of this saga and go to business. He's saying he's basically tired of this. Then, the interesting aspect that he also raised in our interview is that basically he was blaming certain ANC leaders, suggesting that certain leaders within the organisation could have been in cahoots with the Public Prosecution office in order to nail him. He's saying there's basically a vendetta - well, he's trying also to get close to Mbeki, saying that these leaders are out to get him, the President, Steve Tshwete and the KwaZulu-Natal leadership. One doesn't know: he didn't spell out who these individuals are who are operating within the ANC who are out to get the leaders.

TERRY:

It's interesting to look at his political career. There was a very good piece in The Cape Times by Malcolm Ray last week, which gave a bit of a profile on Yengeni's political trajectory. I mean, in the past he has been one of the people out to get other people, like Peter Mokaba and company.

JIMMY:

[LAUGHING] Yes, that's true. And then the other comment which is basically quite unfortunate is that he also made a blistering attack on Ngcuka, calling him spineless and basically useless, and that he's trying to ingratiate himself to the white community in order to be accepted. He's getting a sense that individuals within the Scorpions are trying to... He says the only way they can be seen to be succeeding is when they deal out with ANC leaders. I don't know whether there's any truth in that.

NIGEL:

One of the other slightly mysterious stories which emerged from Parliament this week, Marion, was one that you identified. I can't quite understand why this came about and why it's caused such consternation. And that is security companies not having any foreign involvement, and the Brits being particularly anguished by this situation. Why should that be such a sticking point?

MARION:

I don't think anybody quite understands it, because it hasn't been properly explained in the Committee. All that was said was that it's dangerous for foreign companies to have stakes in South African security companies.

NIGEL:

Dangerous?

MARION:

Yes, dangerous. You could argue the same for airports; you could argue the same for the telecommunications industry; for whole areas where we're hoping for privatisation. So it doesn't seem to really make sense, particularly if it chases away foreign investors at this particular time. Because there are three or four - Danish, UK, US - companies with large stakes in security companies in South Africa, and if this legislation goes through as it is at the moment they will have to withdraw and put their stakes in the market. And there is talk of those stakes becoming black empowerment opportunities. Again, one wonders, is there enough money in South Africa to raise the three billion rand necessary for black empowerment companies to buy in? It doesn't make sense. And interestingly Alec Erwin was in Japan at the time, the Minister of Trade & Industry, and I wonder whether or not he's going to have to come back and start to put the pieces together again.

TERRY:

I think this is a fear that's been expressed in the past, about the sheer size and scale of the security industry. They're bigger than the police force; they're heavily armed. Mick Bartman, who is a former policeman, who runs Springbok - and Springbok Khulani, basically - has armoured personnel carriers which he bought surplus from the army. He's been trying to get SLR rifles okayed for security companies. So we actually have private armies out there. I think it's even more dangerous, the fact that we have... If one has a look at some of the more notorious members of the previous regime's security forces, they are now in security companies. And running them.

MARION:

But they're not foreign.

TERRY:

No, but that's what I'm saying. That to me is even more dangerous. I think it's that danger, and the concept then of 'foreign'... Because this xenophobic thing has been whipped up around the world largely over the World Trade Centre. September the 11th has created a sort of - well, not quite a tidal wave but a severe current of xenophobia around the world.

JIMMY:

I also think that this move by government falls in line with another one which they did last year with this Private Intelligence Bill where they are trying to bar. Because after 1994 there was a proliferation of intelligence agencies, private ones, and basically they were also run by ex-NIS individuals. I think the government is trying to clamp down on all these structures which they see as a security threat.

TERRY:

And just screwed it up by calling it foreign. I don't know!

MARION:

I mean, the point is that the security companies are going to remain in the country, even if the foreign investors pull out, because the police are seen to be very ineffective in many areas and people want protection. So if you're worried about private armies, as you say, then you've got to scrap the whole industry. And I just don't think South Africa would want that.

TERRY:

No, no. I can see that. But what I'm saying is that it's probably the fear underlying it. Because I have heard that fear expressed in many quarters. And it's an understandable fear, too, because of the way some of these things have been run - because of the paramilitary nature of most of the security companies and, quite honestly, the people behind them. And Jimmy's right, too, about intelligence : where's Suiker Brits and that lot today? They've got their great big - I forget what it's called - in Pretoria now, which I think is more effective and possibly more efficient and just about as big as the NIS.

JIMMY:

And the funny thing is that even government agencies are consulting with the Suiker Brits unit! [LAUGHTER]

TERRY:

Well, that's all right. Who's running our external security? Look at Kroll Associates, which is an ex-CIA bunch - they're already running our security here.

MARION:

Isn't it all part of globalisation, really? [MORE LAUGHTER]

NIGEL:

Just time, I think, to identify one of the major stories in this upcoming week. There's a census taking place on Tuesday and Wednesday, and I note from today's papers that a hundred thousand enumerators will be issued with packs of condoms. The mind boggles!

Well, that is it, ladies and gentlemen, for this week's edition of 'The Editors', so my thanks to Terry Bell, Inside Labour columnist for Business Report and Deputy Editor of the London-based newsletter, Africa Analysis; to Marion Edmunds, Parliamentary Correspondent for e.tv; and to Jimmy Seepe, Political Editor for City Press. Until the same time next week have yourself a successful and I hope a reasonably enjoyable week. Good-bye.

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