The former transport minister whose allegations against the National Director of Public Prosecutions, Bulelani Ngcuka, are being examined by the Hefer commission. Chris Barron asked him . . .

Things are not looking good for you, are they?

I don't think they've changed at all.

How could they not have changed? You staked your reputation on Ngcuka being agent RS 452.

It has not been our contention that he is RS 452.

I thought it was.

Our contention has been that the security forces of apartheid used a false flag to conceal the identity of the source whose information was partly added into the reports of RS 452.

You said you had good reason to believe that RS 452 was Ngcuka.

I said that I believed that the analysis that the source was most probably Mr Ngcuka was convincing. We never made the allegation that he was RS 452.

Did the President's appointment of an inquiry take you by surprise?

I was not privy to the steps that the President was going to take. I was a bit surprised at the terms of reference originally published because I have consistently raised the matter that there were abuses going on in the conduct of the Scorpions. The fact that the terms of reference did not include that did concern me.

Why did you wait until you were being investigated to publicise your suspicions?

When I was in Cabinet we promoted the idea of reconciliation . . . Letting bygones be bygones.

Did you think it was all right for an apartheid spy to be appointed to such an important position?

I was prepared to even support the appointment of General Van der Merwe to Commissioner of Police. I thought that only when a person abuses that authority it may become relevant to look at what accounts for that abuse.

You don't think as a minister you had a duty to make your concerns known?

The proposal was promoted by the minister of justice, who was the accounting minister for the portfolio of intelligence. I assumed it would have been processed. According to the law the national director didn't require a security clearance. Nobody questioned this.

Why didn't you?

It never occurred. Just as I only realise now that combining investigation and prosecution in one authority is a recipe for problems.

So it's only when you were under investigation that these flaws occurred to you?

I have never known in the history of human kind when causes for justice have not started with people who experienced problems.

But you can understand why your timing is viewed cynically?

I understand that. That's why I'm not even quarrelling with the media.

You're still convinced Ngcuka was a spy?

It is a historical fact that investigations were conducted and the conclusion reached was that there were sufficient grounds to conclude he was most probably the source.

That sounds weak to me.

In the world of intelligence you will seldom find direct evidence.

In that case aren't you wasting the commission's time by requesting truckloads of documents?

I believe [there is a chance] of finding sufficient evidence where the inference is inescapable.

Why did you wait for the commission before trying to dig up evidence to support your allegations?

I think there is nothing improper about that. What I've done has been to try and cross-check the facts.

Aren't you changing tack now, because it's beginning to look like you're wrong?

Not at all. So far the evidence is by people who say: "I knew him and he was a good man." Ask Vanessa Brereton's friends. Until she made her submission none of them believed [she was a spy].

With acknowledgements to Chris Barron and the Sunday Times.