Deputy President Jacob Zuma met with French arms dealers Thomson more than previously thought - and behind President Thabo Mbeki's back at that, the Durban High Court has heard.

This is what Durban businessman Schabir Shaik, on trial for fraud and corruption, would tell the court, his counsel, Francois van Zyl SC, said on Tuesday.

This brings the number of meetings between Zuma and the French arms dealers to three. Earlier, Shaik admitted that he and Zuma also met with Alain Thetard of Thomson in March 2000. The state will say this was the meeting that led to a fax setting out conditions for a R1-million bribe solicited for Zuma's protection.

But forensic auditor Johan van der Walt, called by the state, testified on Tuesday that there could have been more such meetings.

Van Zyl, whose cross-examination of Van der Walt ranged from icy calm to mild irritation, said Shaik had found out that Mbeki, apparently, had indicated that Shaik and his group of companies, Nkobi Holdings, were not suitable partners for black economic empowerment.

Shaik would say he had been dealing with Mbeki and Zuma in their roles as president and deputy president of the African National Congress respectively.

But Van der Walt said he had a different interpretation of a letter written in 1998 by Shaik to Zuma and Mbeki. It was clear that Zuma was the one who had been concerned about Mbeki's allegations about Shaik and Nkobi's unsuitability.

"Zuma raised the allegations."

But Van Zyl said his client would say the allegations had been made by Mbeki. Van der Walt countered that they had been "conveyed to Shaik by Zuma".

"We say there were rumours that Shaik and Nkobi were not suitable for black economic empowerment and that it was Mbeki who said it," Van Zyl said.

"This letter is written in English and I understand it in another way," Van der Walt replied.

"Shaik will say he wrote it to stop the rumours. It was addressed to Zuma and Mbeki in their official capacities," Van Zyl responded.

He said Pierre Moynot, of Thomson, had then wanted to meet with Zuma. In July 1998, Thomson invested directly in African Defence Systems (ADS). This meant Nkobi would not have indirect shareholding in ADS and was cut off from possibly profiting from the arms deal.

Shaik then wrote to Jean Paul Perrier of Thomson, because he believed this had been caused by the notion that he and Nkobi were not suitable black economic empowerment partners, Van Zyl said. He said Shaik was anxious for this problem to be solved and organised a London meeting with Perrier, to coincide with a Zuma trip to Scotland.

When the Scorpions raided Nkobi's offices, they found Zuma's travel programme. A handwritten note about the meeting was on the programme. Van Zyl told the court that Shaik would say common ground was established during the London meeting, especially as "both Perrier and Zuma were socialists".

"Thomson's fears were laid to rest. Perrier also indicated that he will move back the shares in ADS to the South African subsidiary of Thomson, in that way giving Nkobi indirect shareholding in ADS."

Van der Walt replied: "One should not lose sight that Zuma knew the facts. He instigated the letter about the Mbeki rumours. Also, look at the letter written in July 1998 where it was made clear that the French regarded Zuma as the rising man. Another note showed that the 'Zuma problem' must be solved."

Van Zyl said Shaik would further admit there was a second meeting between Zuma, himself and the French, this time in Durban. "Zuma was present for the meeting but not for the whole meeting, and arrived when the meeting was in process."

Van der Walt replied: "One cannot look at the events in isolation. Zuma was concerned about the allegations that Nkobi was not a suitable black economic empowerment partner. I would find it strange if he was not at that meeting."

"We have a different interpretation," Van Zyl said. "Perrier asked for that meeting... Zuma's involvement was nothing more than resolving the black economic empowerment dispute."

"I accept what is said, but the indications are there that it was not limited to that. The starting point for this was Zuma's concern. One point was clear. The French regarded Zuma as 'the rising man'. His name had impact. His presence was used in many forms," Van der Walt said.

"But it has nothing to do with Shaik," an irritated Van Zyl replied.

With acknowledgements to Estelle Ellis and The Star.