Deputy President Jacob Zuma met French arms dealers Thomson-CSF three times, not once, and behind President Thabo Mbeki's back at that, the high court here has heard.

This is what Durban businessman Schabir Shaik is to testify, his counsel, Francois van Zyl, said yesterday.

Zuma had met the arms dealers after Shaik, according to papers, had been frozen out of their business because Mbeki had apparently questioned his group of companies, Nkobi Holdings' suitability as a black economic empowerment partner.

Shaik, on trial on charges of fraud and corruption, has told the court he and Zuma met Thomson-CSF's SA director, Alain Thetard, in March 2000.

The prosecution is to say this was the meeting that led to a fax about the payment of a R500 000-a-year fee to "JZ" in return for protection during the arms deal probe.

But forensic auditor Johan van der Walt, called by the state to give evidence in Shaik's trial, testified yesterday there could have been more such meetings.

Van Zyl, continuing his cross-examination of Van der Walt for a seventh day, said Shaik had heard Mbeki apparently had indicated that he and his group, Nkobi Holdings, were not suitable as a black economic empowerment partner. At that stage, Shaik would say, he had been dealing with Mbeki and Zuma in their capacities as ANC president and deputy president.

But Van der Walt said he had interpreted a letter Shaik wrote in 1998 to Zuma and Mbeki in another way. It was clear from the letter that it was Zuma who had been concerned about Mbeki's allegations about Shaik and Nkobi's unsuitability. "Zuma raised the allegations."

But Van Zyl said Shaik would say the allegations were made by Mbeki. Van der Walt countered that they had been "conveyed to Shaik by Zuma".

Van Zyl: "We say there were rumours that Shaik and Nkobi were not suitable for black economic empowerment and that it was Mbeki who said it."

Van der Walt: "This letter is written in English and I understand it in another way."

Van Zyl: "Shaik will say he wrote the letter to stop the rumours. It was an open letter ... to Zuma and Mbeki in their official capacities."

Van Zyl said Pierre Moynot, of Thomson-CSF, had then wanted to meet Zuma.

In July 1998, Thomson-CSF invested directly in African Defence Systems (ADS). This meant Nkobi would not have an indirect shareholding in ADS and was cut off from possibly profiting from the arms deal.

Shaik had then written to Jean Paul Perrier of Thomson-CSF because he believed this had stemmed from the notion that he and Nkobi were not suitable black economic empowerment partners, Van Zyl said.

Shaik was anxious that this problem be resolved and arranged a meeting in London with Perrier to coincide with an official trip by Zuma to Scotland.

When the Scorpions raided Nkobi's offices, they found Zuma's travel programme among Shaik's documents and on it was a handwritten note about the meeting.

Van Zyl told the court Shaik would say common ground had been established at the London meeting, especially as "Perrier and Zuma were socialists" *1.

Van Zyl: "Thomson's fears were laid to rest. Perrier also indicated he would move the shares in ADS back to Thomson's South African subsidiary, in that way giving Nkobi indirect shareholding in ADS."

Van der Walt: "One should not lose sight of the fact that Zuma knew the facts. He instigated the letter about the Mbeki rumours. Also look at the letter written in July 1998 where it was made clear the French regarded Zuma as the rising man. Another note showed that the 'Zuma problem' must be solved."

Van Zyl said Shaik would confirm he'd had a second meeting with Zuma and the French and that it was in Durban.

"Zuma was present ... but not for the whole meeting."

Van der Walt: "Zuma was concerned about the allegations that Nkobi was not a suitable black economic empowerment partner. I'd find it strange if he was not at that meeting."

Van Zyl: "We have a different interpretation. Perrier asked for that meeting ... Zuma's involvement was nothing more than resolving the black economic empowerment dispute."

Van der Walt: "The French saw Zuma as 'the rising man'. His name had impact. His presence was used in many forms."

Van Zyl: "But it has nothing to do with Shaik *2."

With acknowledgements to Estelle Ellis and the Cape Times.

*1 Socialists indeed - Briber and Bribee in deed, the ground is common indeed.

*2 But Shaikh was the one doing the using. It has everything to do with Shaikh and everything to do with the irregular and deceitful corvette combat suite acquisition process.