Jacob Zuma is on the minds of many people. He has been on the mind of Transvaal Judge President Bernard Ngoepe who has to decide on the name of the presiding officer in the Zuma rape trial.

He is certainly on the minds of thousands of his supporters. Zuma also remains on the mind of the ANC which, for the first time in its history, has its deputy president facing criminal charges in a court of law.

So, it follows, that the Zuma issue should be on top of the minds and raised by the many people that ANC president Thabo Mbeki has met in the past few months, while campaigning for votes for the municipal poll. Not so, says Mbeki in an interview with Independent Newspapers.

People wanted to and did raise matters that affected their everyday life. And not Jacob Zuma. Mbeki also does not believe that what has happened to Jacob Zuma - his dismissal as his deputy in government and his quasi-suspension in the ANC - will have any effect on the way in which ANC members vote.

"No, it won't. In all of this election campaigning I've done, there is not one single incident in which this issue has been raised. We spent the whole day in Newcastle and Dannhauser, in KwaZulu-Natal, going all over the place, talking to people and going to houses, interacting broadly with the people. Nobody has raised this question. And I'm quite sure they won't.

"When you talk to people, for instance old age pensioners, they will say to you: 'President, I want to show you this bill from local government. Look at this and this is what they say I owe for water, electricity and where am I supposed to get this money from and I've been going to the council offices and raising these things but they are not doing anything. Do something!'"

Houses It was the same story in Cape Town, Mbeki added. "People say: 'President the houses and flats where we stay in Mannenberg and Hanover Park are so many years old and why are we still paying rent? Why don't we have title deeds?'

"Indeed I ask the same question: Why have these people not been given title deeds to these old houses? These are the concerns we find among people.

"In Newcastle people said: 'President, we don't know if you know but a lot of coal mines closed down in this area, and they used to provide a lot of employment, but they are closed now - there's one or two left - can something be done about it?'

"All right, that can't be done by local government, so we follow it up from national. Yes, the deputy president (Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka) has been talking about this matter. These are real genuine concerns of the people.

"They don't raise issues that relate to the deputy president. People understand very well (that) these are pressing challenges they face as individuals in these communities. They want to alert us to the problems so that we can act on them. I think this is what drives them in their participation," Mbeki said.

Mbeki says that government would co-operate, as much as it legally can, to assist the prosecution or defence in the Zuma corruption and fraud trial, but he would prefer not to take the box as a witness. "It depends," he says. "(But) one of the things we have to guard against is acting in way that reduces the esteem, prestige and authority of this institution (the Presidency).

"On many instances, Zuma has said that he has been unfairly treated by everyone."

We asked Mbeki if he thought Zuma was referring to the way in which he would have treated him during his tenure of deputy president of the country.

"No. He has never said to me I have treated him unfairly and I don't think that he has actually sought to communicate that. I have no sense of that.

"He has spoken about how law enforcement has dealt with him and indeed the national executive did say that perhaps we should have spoken stronger and so on, for instance with the regard to matters that have to do with leakages or determinations that there was a prima facie case, or the response of the then minister of justice (Penuel Maduna) to what the public protector said.

"To the extent that these matters relate to this issue of unfair treatment, sure, the leadership of the ANC has taken that particular position.

Divided "I really don't think there is anything that needs to be said on that matter," Mbeki said.

Mbeki admits that the ANC is facing serious problems, but emphasises, quite strongly, that the party is not divided. He challenged those who speak of divisions: "Prove it!"

Mbeki says that he does not believe that there is any level of disunity in the ANC which is radically different from any other period in the former liberation movement's history.

"That's what I'm saying will have to be proved," he said. He continued: "The ANC has never had its deputy president charged with criminal offences. Never. It is the first time that it has happened. So it's a new experience and you can't compare it with any other period where you might have had this sort of thing. In terms of the life setting up to 1994, it's 82 years in the life of the ANC.

"For 82 years (before 1994) the ANC is not in government. So in 1994 it is in government and one of the consequences is that it (being in government) raises new challenges for the membership of the ANC.

"So if you try to compare 1994 to 1912, in term of the impact on the ANC, of course it is not comparable. The person who joined the ANC in the 50s joined to fight the struggle against apartheid and the price they paid was quite high. You are going to get killed; you're going to go to jail, but never mind, we're in the struggle and that's fine.

"Come 1994, there is an individual personal benefit to being a member of the ANC. It's a different setting altogether. Now I join the ANC in order to become president, to become premier, to become something or the other. Before that you didn't.

"You joined the ANC knowing you might get killed. It becomes a different setting. And there will be different strains and stresses that the ANC will experience because of changed settings of which it had no experience of. So I have no doubt that many things that will happen to the ANC now, never happened to the ANC 20 years ago, because of these changed settings. So what is this disunity that people are talking about? At a certain stage, the ANC in exile expelled a group of leaders, very senior leaders. They were called the Gang of Eight.

"They had taken a completely different policy position with regards to all sorts of matters. There were lots of thing that they disagreed with, in terms of policy and direction of the organisation. They therefore formed themselves into a faction and acted in a way.

"They really wanted to change altogether the positions that had been agreed to by the movement. Attempts were made to persuade them to stay. They wouldn't listen.

Expelled "They would not agree and in the end they were expelled for factionalism. They were senior leaders, senior to us. So what is this disunity people are talking about as though there is something spectacular with regard to that now? You can even go back to the formation of the All African European Movement. That came about as a result of weaknesses in the ANC. So an alternative body was formed. Of course, it ultimately withered away. We are not facing that situation right now. I know that television pictures can give a different impression, but they are only television pictures".

With acknowledgement to the Daily News, Jovial Rantao, Angela Quintal and Moshoeshoe Manare.