Publication: ANC Today
Issued:
Date: 2007-11-16
Reporter:
In various editions of this journal, this column has exposed
deliberate lies that have been
told by some in the domestic and international
media, who have the specific intention to discredit *1
our movement, the ANC, and our government.
The work to expose these lies is never a pleasant task *2.
However it cannot be avoided as long as some in the media elect to tell lies
about our movement, our government and country, to promote their agendas, as did
one Chris McGreal in an article published by the British Guardian newspaper on
13 November 2007.
The shameless fabrications *3 concocted by McGreal
derive from the unending campaign by our opponents to invent corrupt practice
around the so-called "arms deal" - the acquisition for the South African
National Defence Force (SANDF) of aircraft, corvettes and submarines.
Over the years government has insisted that the acquisition process resulting in
government entering into primary contracts with the
suppliers was free of any corruption and challenged anybody with information to
the contrary to produce this information *4.
To date, absolutely nobody has done so *5. Rather our accusers have been
happy to trot out various allegations, as does McGreal. They then engage in the
dishonest practice of presenting these allegations as facts, obviously resolved
that no ethical consideration, such as respect for the
truth *6, will be allowed to frustrate their campaign.
Challenge #1
McGreal says, "A former speaker of parliament has already been convicted of
accepting a bribe from a German weapons manufacturer." This is a blatant lie. We
challenge McGreal to say who this "former speaker" is.
Challenge #1
McGreal means the ANC Chief Whip Tony Yengeni and he means that Yengeni was
charged with accepting a bribe.
Yengeni actually entered into a plea bargain whereby the bribery charge was
abandoned in favour of the easier to prove fraud charge.
Nothing huge turns on these minor errors of fact and McGreal's version is by no
means a lie, let alone a blatant one.
Challenge #1 met.
Indeed Yengeni lied outright to The Nation in
this instance.
Challenge #2
McGreal says, "Mbeki has quashed investigations by the South African parliament,
the auditor general and the director of public prosecutions into the links
between senior ANC officials, the party and the arms companies." This is a
blatant lie. We challenge McGreal to produce even one fact to substantiate the
allegation he makes.
Challenge #2
A fact : Mbeki quashed investigations by the South African Parliament who
recommended that a Special Investigating Unit
investigate the Arms Deal.
It is beyond any doubt whatsoever that Mbeki quashed investigations by Heath
Special Investigating Unit which was recommended by two senior counsel to
receive a proclamation to investigate.
It was broadcast on SABC television on 19 January 2001.
Challenge #2 met.
Indeed Mbeki lied outright to The Nation in this
instance.
Challenge #3
The truth that is known by everybody, but which McGreal hopes to wipe out from
public memory, is that the Public Accounts Committee (SCOPA) of parliament
conducted its own investigation without any let or hindrance by the ANC or the
government, exactly because we had nothing to hide. As was its right and duty,
the executive arm of government, through the then Leader of Government Business,
the Deputy President of the Republic, Jacob Zuma, wrote to SCOPA to respond to
its Report. We challenge McGreal to produce one fact to disprove this statement.
Challenge #3
SCOPA did not actually conduct its own fullscale investigation. It only
investigated the overall situation in response to the AG's Special Report of
September 2000. This culminated in the hearings of 11 October 2000 followed by
SCOPA's 14th Report which recommended a fullscale forensic investigation by the
AG, PP, NDPP and Heath SIU.
Once pressure was applied by the ANC government on the ANC members of SCOPA (who
were of course in the majority), SCOPA was forced to backtrack on the inclusion
of the Heath SIU.
Furthermore once the JIT Report was issued in November 2001 and clearly leaving
a multitude of matters unresolved, SCOPA issued its final report simply
accepting the situation.
Although the JIT Report was very weak on recommendations, there has not even
been a report on how these were to be resolved.
These are facts.
Challenge #3 met.
So Mbeki lied outright to The Nation in this
instance.
Challenge #4
McGreal says Tony Yengeni "led the campaign on behalf of Mbeki to shut down
parliament's investigation of the weapons contracts." This is a blatant lie. We
challenge McGreal to produce one fact to substantiate his claim.
Challenge #4
This is Andrew Feinstein's position on the matter.
As a senior ANC MP, senior ANC SCOPA member and someone with personally
experience of this, who is anyone to gainsay Feinstein.
Feinstein's testimony is effective prima facie evidence.
Challenge #4 met.
Challenge #5
The Parliamentary Committee recommended that various state organs should conduct
an investigation into the defence procurement. As a result, our country's
Auditor General, the National Director of Public Prosecutions and the Public
Protector carried out this work jointly and submitted their Report to
Parliament. We challenge McGreal to produce one fact to demonstrate that what we
have said is untrue.
This is true, but is McGreal challenging this fact.
But more importantly SCOPA wanted the Heath SIU as part of the joint
investigation.
That the HSIU was excluded is a fact.
McGreal says "the South African air force's requirements (for a trainer
aircraft) could have been adequately met through the cheaper Italian (Aeromacchi)
bid (instead of the more expensive BAe Systems bid)." But what are the facts!
The truth is that once the decision was taken to acquire
the Gripen fighter-aircraft for the airforce, it was clear that it would be
incorrect to acquire the Aeromacchi trainer. This was for the simple reason that
it would not be possible to graduate from the Aeromacchi trainer to fly the
Gripen. *1
Challenge #5
JIT Report :
- "4.6.4 At an AASB meeting held on 16 July 1998, it was
minuted that SAAF confirmed that the first contenders in respect of the
LIFT, i.e. the MB339FD, the L159 and the Hawk, could all satisfy the pilot
training requirements for a conversion from the Astra to the ALFA."
The chairman of the meeting ruled that it was the AASB's recommendation that the
MB339FD be procured in accordance with the preference of SAAF within its
envisaged fighter training system.
On 16 July 1998 the Armament Acquisition Steering Board (AASB) sat in their
Meeting No. 2/98 held in the Auditorium, DHQ, at 08:00 CAT under the
chairmanship of the Secretary of Defence Mr P.D. Steyn. It was a properly
constituted meeting with quorum and full authority to make all relevant
decisions in accordance with the document acquisition process MODAC.
The Minutes of the meeting records at Paragraph 4 as follows :
- "The results of the military evaluation, the risk assessment and the
cost analysis are shown culminating in the overall Military best value for
money result recommended by the project team, confirmed by the SAAF Command
Council, and presented to the SOFCOM. The SAAF confirm that the first three
contenders, the MB 339 FD, the L 159 and the r^AWK all satisfy the SAAF
pilot training requirement for conversion from the ASTRA to the ALFA."
The Minutes of the same meeting records at Paragraph 7(d) as follows :
- The Chairman rules that the AASB recommendation is the MB 339 FD as
evaluated, and noted that this result is the SAAF preference within the
envisaged "SAAF fighter training system" required by the SAAF.
There is no recorded dissent from Chief of the SANDF Gen S. Nyanda and Chief of
the SAAF Lt Gen W.H. Hechter, both being in attendance.
That the Aermacchi MB 339 MB is the clear formal selection of the SAAF is beyond
any doubt whatsoever.
Challenge #5 met.
So either Mbeki or Shauket Fakie lied to The
Nation in this instance.
Challenge #6
The BAe Systems Hawk satisfied the requirements for a trainer to prepare pilots
to fly the Gripen. Had we bought the Aeromacchi trainer, we would still have to
buy the Hawk and use the Italian trainer to prepare pilots to fly the Hawk,
despite the fact that our airforce already has trainers to prepare pilots to fly
this aircraft. Clearly it would be absurd to proceed in this manner. We
challenge McGreal to produce one fact to demonstrate that what we have said is
false.
Challenge #6
That the SAAF would also require the Hawk to train pilots for the Gripen is
an outright falsehood.
The SAAF evaluation as documented clearly in the JIT Report shows otherwise.
Challenge #6 met.
So Mbeki's stooge lies outright in this
instance.
Challenge #7
McGreal says our airforce was "strongly opposed to buying the British fighters".
This is a blatant lie. We challenge McGreal to produce one fact to substantiate
his claim.
Challenge #7
The minutes of the 16 July 1998 Armaments Acquisition Steering Board (AASB)
Meeting No. 2/98 shows that the SAAF was "strongly opposed to buying the Hawk
fighter trainer".
Challenge #7 met.
So Mbeki's stooge lies outright in this
instance.
Challenge #8
McGreal also says "the secretary of defence, Pierre Steyn, later resigned over
what he described to investigators as the 'arse-about-face' decision in which
the military's requirements were tailored to suit the choice already made by the
politicians."
The truth is that the defence acquisition was based on acceptance of the
outcomes of a Defence Review in which the SA National Defence Force was
intimately involved, which were accepted by our Parliament and our population at
large. What McGreal said about Pierre Steyn is a blatant lie. We challenge
McGreal to produce one fact to prove the contrary.
Challenge #8
The transcript of the interview under oath with Pierre Dirksen Steyn on 14
August 2001 conducted by Adv S Mzinyathi, H. Mostert and G. Swats records as
follows :
- "It is a, the whole process was turned arse about face and patently I
was irritated no end at going through a facade of legitimising what we were
doing."
- "Look Mr Mostert, the decision makers and those who supported the
decision makers tried various avenues to get to presumably their
predetermined choice. Their choice for the Hawk was patently clear right
from the start, the Hawk 100. They tried non-costed options, it did not
work. They tried, let us consider risk. None of them were decided upon
upfront, when the process started. These were so serious deviations from
procedure, that I was highly irritated and a statement made like that, was
patently an attempt to say, Mr Steyn, please think broader than the defence
requirements and procedures, because I have a duty to think nationally. I
was not impressed."
- "Mr Swats, right from the start there were, there were considerable
deviation from the prescripts of the acquisition process. Materially and
otherwise."
Regarding his resignation, Mr Steyn is on public record as saying that he
resigned due to his concerns with the Arms Deal acquisition process. As far as I
know he has not rebutted this recordal.
Challenge #8 met.
So Mbeki's stooge lies outright in this
instance.
Challenge #9
McGreal reports that one Andrew Feinstein, a former member of the ANC and MP,
"said the politicians decided in favour of the British planes at an 'informal
meeting' attended by Mbeki, (the late former minister of Defence, Joe) Modise
and at least one official since implicated in corruption in the deal. The BAe
bid was then presented to the cabinet for approval without any other bids on the
table."
The entirety of the assertions made in this passage is nothing more than a
conglomeration of blatant lies. We challenge McGreal to ask his informant,
Andrew Feinstein, to assist him by providing him with the single facts to
substantiate the claims that McGreal chose to report approvingly.
Challenge #9
The meeting was indeed an informal one.
It was :
- termed a "Special Briefing";
- the quorum had no authority to make any decisions;
- had no secretary;
- no minutes were taken during the meeting;
- had two sets of conflicting "minutes";
- so-called decisions were made after two persons with statutory authority
to make certain decisions, i.e. the Secretary for Defence and Managing
Director of Armscor, had left the meeting;
- the main "decision" of this meeting to self the Hawk is in conflict with
these participants understanding of the main part of the briefing.
The person who gave the presentation to the meeting as well as concocted a
second set of minutes was Chief of Acquisitions Chippy Shaik, was has been
implicated as having received a bribe from a successful bidder.
Challenge #9 met.
So Mbeki's stooge lies outright in this
instance.
Challenge #10
McGreal wrote, "Feinstein says that besides eventually shutting down his (sic!)
investigation, the presidency also put pressure on the auditor general to alter
a report saying there were 'fundamental flaws' in the process, (which) was
manipulated to ensure the contract went to BAe."
There was never any Feinstein investigation and no pressure was put on the
Auditor General (AG) to alter any of his findings. In keeping with established
practice, the AG gave government a copy of his report to ensure the accuracy of
the facts that would inform his findings. Accordingly, the government responded
to the matter of facts, as required in any auditing process, which also
guarantees the AG the right to verify any facts presented to him/her. Again we
challenge McGreal to ask his informant, Andrew Feinstein, to assist him by
providing him with the single facts to substantiate the claims that McGreal
chose to report approvingly.
Challenge #10
That pressure was put on the Auditor General (AG) to alter his findings is
supported by unchallengeable documentary evidence which I have in my possession
which plainly shows that the final JIT Report differs very substantially to the
draft report given to the presidency and MINCOM.
The AG is on record as saying the following in Parliament on 4th December 2001
- "[Mr S Fakie] On the
issue of the Draft Report being submitted to the President and the 4Cabinet
Ministers, I know this has been a matter of much controversy and questioning
in the media, and I specifically tried to address this when we tabled this
Report in Parliament, and in the main the issue here is that firstly as part
of due process, and the Report is very specific around this, we followed due
process throughout this Report. You would find that even when we found
something on paper, and this was our interpretation of how the thing
happened and the facts, when we interviewed witnesses we checked the factual
accuracy of what we interpret as a fact. And that is part of due process,
whether it's an audit, whether it's an investigation or whether it is a
forensic investigation. You have to check the facts of what you interpret on
documentation. And that is part of the due process that we followed. Now
specifically relating to the Draft Report being made available to the
President and the 4 Ministers, they formed part of a Committee called
MINCOM. And MINCOM was a critical player in the whole Arm Procurement
Process from a recommendation point of view. And a lot of recommendation
came through to the Ministers Committee that deliberated those issues. They
also were the Committee that actually presented information for Cabinet
approval. So in our view, those members within MINCOM are critical in order
for us to understand the factual correctness of the issues in our Report,
and why certain decisions were taken in a certain way. And it was as a
result of that as well, and in addition to that, the third issue that I
would like to put on the table, that when I was party to this Joint
Investigation I did my job in terms of the Auditor-General Act, because that
is a mandate on which I work on. Specifically Section 4 (6) of the
Auditor-General Act says that any funds that gets expended out of the
Special Defence Account requires as part of due process for me to consult
with the Ministers involved and the President before I finalize the Report
and before the Report comes to public. The background and the reason behind
that specific section being included in the Auditor-General Act was that
there may be issues of national interest that I am not aware of. And the
President and the Ministers involved within the particular section are
probably more aware of issues of national interest. And it gives them the
opportunity to bring to my attention something that is included in the
Report that may be of national interest, and I must watch.
And there was nothing in this Report, I want to give
you assurance, which was identified as issues of national interest that I
need to take into consideration, except the fact it was stated that the
detailed quotations from Cabinet Minutes, etc. are privileged documents.
We can look at those Cabinet Minutes. We can make our findings from the
issues that were deliberated but the details of quotations should not be
here. That is the only issue that we got input on.
So it was part of due process. It was part of acting within my
Auditor-General Act, Section 4 (6) that we actually consulted
with the President and the four Ministers to finalize this Report. So that
is the third issue."
So the AG denies that the input resulting in the final
version regards matters of fact, only potentially matters of national interest
of which there were none.
There were indeed Government/DoD inputs into the report, but this was at a much
earlier stage of the drafting process.
There is clear documentary evidence of MINCOM consisting of Ministers Lekota,
Manuel, Erwin and President Mbeki gave instructions to fundamentally change the
key findings and conclusion of the JIT's report.
Challenge #10 met.
So both Mbeki and Shauket Fakie lied outright to
The Nation in this instance.
Challenge #11
McGreal says Tony Yengeni "went to prison for accepting bribes from a German
arms manufacturer". Yengeni was found guilty of fraud, based on the charge that
he had defrauded Parliament by presenting it with false information. The
assertion made by McGreal is both a blatant lie and is libellous. We challenge
McGreal to produce one fact to prove that Yengeni was convicted of accepting a
bribe by a German arms manufacturer.
Challenge #11
The assertion made by McGreal is certain not a blatant lie.
Yengeni went to prison for fraud, but he was charged with accepting bribes from
a German arms manufacturer.
It is doubtful that such a statement is libellous or defamatory.
It certainly is both true and in the public interest to know that Yengeni was
charged with accepting bribes from a German arms manufacturer and that he only
escaped being convicted on such a charge by entering into a plea bargain with
The State..
Challenge #11 met.
Challenge #12
Like others who share his agenda, McGreal does not explain that Shabir Shaik is
serving a jail sentence for offences that have absolutely nothing to do with the
primary contracts into which government entered, which were not affected by any
corruption. We challenge McGreal to produce one fact to show that what we have
said is not true.
Challenge #12
Schabir Shaik was convicted for two corruption offences both related to his
dealings with Thomson-CSF and ADS, suppliers of the corvette combat suite.
The contract to supply the corvette combat suite is incorporated into the
contract to supply the entire corvette, inclusive of it's corvette combat suite,
in terms of the Umbrella Agreement and subsidiary Supply Agreement entered into
with the European South African Corvette Consortium (ESACC), two of whose
members are Thomson-CSF Naval Systems and ADS.
Both Thomson-CSF Naval Systems and ADS are independent and full parties to and
signatories of these agreements.
Other signatories are the South African Government represented by its Ministry
of Defence and Department of Trade and Industry. Another signatory is Armscor,
the South African Government's statutory authority for armaments acquisition.
This contract is the primary contract for the corvettes and therefore two things
can factually be said :
- Schabir Shaik is serving a jail sentence for offences that related
directly to a primary contracts into which the South African Government
entered; and
- the corvette contract is affected by proven corruption.
Challenge #12 met.
So both Mbeki and his stooge lied to The Nation
in this instance.
Challenge #13
McGreal wrote, "BAe, along with German and French firms, have been accused of
paying bribes to senior ANC politicians and government officials, and of helping
to fund the ANC's 1999 election campaign in return for a slice of the country's
largest ever weapons buying spree." We challenge McGreal to produce one fact
that has been tabled by our accusers in almost a decade, to substantiate their
accusations.
Challenge #13
The facts that BAe has been accused of paying bribes to senior ANC
politicians and government officials are contained in the UK's Serious Fraud
Office's Mutual Letter of Assistance sent to the South African Government
mid-2006.
The facts that German firms have been accused of paying bribes to senior ANC
politicians and government officials are contained in the German Prosecuting
Authority's Mutual Letter of Assistance sent to the South African Government
mid-2007.
The fact that a French firm has been found to have paid a bribe to a senior ANC
politician is contained in the judgments on the High Court Durban and Coast
Local Division issued in May 2005 confirmed by the judgment of the Supreme Court
of Appeal issued in September 2007.
Challenge #13 met.
So both Mbeki and his stooge lied to The Nation
in this instance.
Challenge #14
McGreal said "Britain's Serious Fraud Office (SFO)...(has made a) request to the
South Africans for assistance (with investigations it is conducting into
allegations that BAe)...paid (£75m) in 'commissions'. That help has not been
forthcoming." The assertion about our government's refusal to "help" the SFO is
a blatant lie. We challenge McGreal to tell the whole truth in this regard,
including the legal requirements that must be met when any legal assistance is
requested, consistent with the obligation to respect the rule of law.
McGreal ended his article, which is made up of a litany of fabrications, by
saying "(ANC Deputy President) Zuma is now facing the prospect of corruption
charges himself, which may derail his efforts to replace Mbeki as president. He
has said if he does land up in court he will name names, and bring others in the
ANC down with him."
We do not know if Deputy President Zuma will be prosecuted. Unlike McGreal, we
have never heard him say he will "name names, and bring others in the ANC down
with him". If this is true, and means that our Deputy President will expose all
those in our movement who have been involved in corruption, he will enjoy the
full and unqualified support of the entirety of the ANC in all its echelons.
Challenge #14
Few outside the National Prosecuting Authorities and Departments of Foreign
Affairs and Justice know the legal requirements that must be met when any legal
assistance is requested, consistent with the obligation to respect the rule of
law.
We challenge the author of this rebuttal and his principals in the South African
Government to :
- release a full copy including all annexures of the UK's Serious Fraud
Office's Mutual Letter of Assistance sent to the South African Government
mid-2006;
- release a full copy including all annexures of the German Prosecuting
Authority's Mutual Letter of Assistance sent to the South African Government
mid-2007;
- explain what legal requirements must be met when any legal assistance is
requested, consistent with the obligation to respect the rule of law.
Challenge #14 counter-challenged.
Challenge #15
McGreal wrote "Despite Mbeki's efforts to bury the issue, the graft around the
arms deal keeps rearing its head." Cabinet, led by Nelson Mandela, constituted a
Cabinet Committee to lead the defence acquisition process that emanated from the
requirements identified during an eminently transparent Defence Review, to which
we have referred.
This Cabinet Committee was chaired by the then Deputy President, Thabo Mbeki,
and included the Ministers of Defence, Finance, Trade and Industry and Public
Enterprises. This Committee considered all the bids, at all times sitting as a
collective, and made the necessary and considered recommendations to our
Cabinet.
Having studied these recommendations, our Cabinet chose the "preferred bidders"
who ultimately met our requirements, after the perfectly normal negotiations
with them to finalise the detailed contractual agreements between them, the
primary contractors, and our Government.
The "graft around the arms deal" alleged by McGreal could only have taken place
if the primary contractors succeeded to bribe the members of the Cabinet
Committee and the Cabinet, the collectives involved in awarding the defence
contracts. McGreal would have no difficulty of any kind in establishing the
specific names of all those who were members of these collectives and
participated in the relevant meetings, including the final meetings in 2000.
Should he seek this information, we are certain that government would be more
than willing to assist him.
It is now more than seven years since the conclusion of the strategic defence
procurement contracts - the so-called arms deal. Surely this is a long enough
period of time to unearth any wrongdoing that might have taken place during the
consideration, the negotiation and the awarding of these contracts.
We challenge McGreal to produce even one solitary fact that demonstrates that
any of the people who were members of the Cabinet collectives to which we have
referred were involved in any graft. In this regard, of course McGreal would be
perfectly free to consult all his informants, including Feinstein, the British
SFO, and the others whose interests are and have been served by the propagation
of falsehoods that some in the domestic and international media have been
pleased to print and broadcast over many years, treating with absolute contempt
their ethical obligation not to tell lies.
Challenge #15
The author of this rebuttal refers to "perfectly normal negotiations".
He and his principles in the South African Government are challenged to explain
how the Deputy President's and Chairman of MINCOM's secret and ongoing meetings
and consultations with Thomson-CSF regarding the supply of the corvette combat
suite during the period of mid-1997 to mid-1999 can be considered to be
"perfectly normal negotiations".
Challenge #15 counter-challenged.
Four-and-a-half years ago, in Vol 3 No 21 of this Journal, we published a Letter
from the President entitled "Our country needs facts, not groundless
allegations". In this Letter our President said:
"In the Biblical Gospel according to St Matthew, it is said that Jesus Christ
saw Simon Peter and his brother Andrew fishing in the Sea of Galilee. And He
said to them: "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."
"Perhaps taking a cue from this, some in our country have appointed themselves
as 'fishers of corrupt men'. Our governance system is the sea in which they have
chosen to exercise their craft. From everything they say, it is clear that they
know it as a matter of fact that they are bound to return from their fishing
expeditions with huge catches of corrupt men (and women)....
"We should not, and will not abandon the offensive to defeat the insulting
campaigns further to entrench a stereotype that has, for centuries, sought to
portray Africans as a people that is corrupt, given to telling lies, prone to
theft and self-enrichment by immoral means, a people that is otherwise
contemptible in the eyes of the 'civilised'. We must expect that, as usual, our
opponents will accuse us of "playing the race card", to stop us confronting the
challenge of racism.
"The fishers of corrupt men are determined to prove everything in the
anti-African stereotype. They rely on their capacity to produce long shadows and
innumerable allegations around the effort of our government to supply the South
African National Defence Force with the means to discharge its constitutional
and continental obligations. They are confident that these long shadows and
allegations without number will engulf and suffocate the forces that fought for
and lead our process of democratisation, reconstruction and development.
"However, what our country needs is substance and not shadows, facts instead of
allegations, and the eradication of racism. The struggle continues."
The lies told by McGreal, for which the British Guardian gave him space in its
pages, confirm everything our President said in 2003. The struggle continues.
(In this article we have presented 15 specific challenges to Chris McGreal to
respond to the assertion we have made that he abused the readers of the Guardian
by feeding them a plethora of lies. McGreal may be in possession of facts that
would disprove the statements we have made. Should McGreal provide such facts,
ANC Today undertakes to publish these in full, to ensure that the truth is told
and that we respect the well-established media practice of the right to reply.
Editor.)
*1 Ironically the rebuttal discredits
its author and his principals, presumably the ANC, the government and its
president.
*2 Unlike exposing these lies which was a very pleasant
task, if somewhat time-consuming.
*3 The fabrications in rebuttal are indeed shameless.
*4 The SA Government has indeed challenged anybody with
information to the contrary to produce this information.
All it has done is to use the might of government to whitewash thew reality and
besmirch the whistleblowers.
But the challenge is eagerly accepted with one caveat, I swop my documentary
evidence for copies of the UK and German MLAs.
It's a deal?
*5 Except, of course, the High Court Durban and Coast Local
and the Supreme Court of Appeal.
*6 When living in glass houses, it is surely best not to
throw stones, large boulders less so.