Publication: Mail and Guardian Issued: Date: 2008-02-15 Reporter: Adriaan Basson

Nyanda: 'We will vet Scorpions'

 

Publication 

Mail and Guardian
Date

2008-02-15

Reporter

Adriaan Basson

Web Link

www.mg.co.za


Scorpions investigators are to be screened before being incorporated into the South African Police Service.

In an exclusive interview with the Mail & Guardian the former defence force chief and chairperson of the African National Congress's subcommittee on peace and stability, Siphiwe Nyanda, said the Scorpions will be audited to get rid of the "bad apples" linked to apartheid's dirty tricks or who work for "foreign services".

He also said police national commissioner Jackie Selebi could have been investigated by his own staff.

Nyanda said President Thabo Mbeki did not show the ANC or its national executive committee (NEC) the Khampepe Commission's report on the Scorpions.

Does the ANC support Safety and Security Minister Charles Nqakula's views on how the Scorpions should be disbanded?
We still have to sit with the ministers belonging to the peace and stability subcommittee of the ANC of which I am chair to discuss what government proposes as the best way forward to address this matter.

Conference decided in its wisdom that the Scorpions should be incorporated into the SAPS. This resolution of course came after another [similar] resolution taken by the ANC in the past -- as old as 2002 in Stellenbosch.

What is the ANC's position on where the Scorpions must go?
We will discuss that. We will be briefed by government and also be guided by the ANC.

All ANC members are interested that crime in South Africa should abate, that the rate of crime should decrease.

Are you saying that the main reason for the ANC resolution was to improve the country's crime-fighting capability?
That is the main reason, yes. It is also ... the main consideration for the ANC to want the Scorpions to move from the National Prosecuting Authority [NPA] because we think that it undermines the principle of the separation of powers. You have investigators who investigate the case and take the case and prosecute it.

We think that there is a problem with that. Because when somebody takes a case, investigates it and passes it on to a prosecutor in a normal criminal justice system, the prosecutor can scrutinise the case -- it is the first line of check.

When these two things are combined, you increase the chances of abuse.

Are you aware of the specialised commercial crimes units where SAPS detectives and prosecutors work together?
Yes, but prosecutors are different. Police do investigations, and then refer the matter to the prosecutors.

But they work on the same model as the Scorpions.
That's why, I say, even the detail of this thing ... there must be some close working relationship between them, but it cannot be the same institution.

So they can work in the same office but not belong to the same institution?
Prosecutors must belong to the NPA.

But they do.
Yes, I see. You can attach prosecutors for a particular case, on a case-by-case basis. I am saying there must be a separation between prosecutors and investigators as a principle. There is actually a legal challenge on this -- the Mac Maharaj case *1.

That must still go to the Constitutional Court.
Yes. We have been concerned about this thing for long. The concern really is about that, and also about turf. When you have the Scorpions doing the same work as the SAPS, you create a problem because it gives rise to turf wars. And leads to inefficiency.

Isn't it healthy to have parallel police forces, also to police one another as in the Scorpions' prosecution of Selebi?
No, I think the police can also investigate the national police commissioner. The police themselves arrest other police.

Would it have been possible for the SAPS to investigate Selebi?
Yes. Even the apartheid police investigated its own ministers.

I'm not talking about ministers, but the police themselves. It is internationally acknowledged that it is good to have parallel structures.
I know that, but I'm saying our country is not an island. There are police forces that don't have the Scorpions, but they investigate themselves.

It obviously becomes more difficult the more senior the person is. It doesn't mean that it is undoable. It depends on the integrity of the police.

Why wasn't the Scorpions dissolved after the 2002 NEC conference?
It [the resolution] was not effected by the executive. Then the Khampepe Commission was set up to look at the turf wars.

The matter of the Scorpions precedes the dismissal of Jacob Zuma from Cabinet. It had been there. Of course it intensified after the national general council of 2005 where people came up with the same resolution.

Judge Khampepe's recommendation was that the Scorpions stay in the NPA.
Well nobody knows what the Khampepe Commission's findings are.

Reverend Frank Chikane [director general in the presidency] made a public announcement about the recommendations.
Chikane is just selective in his public announcements.

But the main recommendation is not disputed -- that the Scorpions stay in the NPA.
We can't comment about a commission I know nothing about. I don't know other things that she said. The other things that she said might be exactly what I'm saying.

Let's stick to the conclusion.
I don't even know what is the conclusion. Let that Khampepe report be made public.

Will the ANC ask the presidency for the report?
I wouldn't want to comment on anything that is not public. Because I don't know what are the other things the commission said.

The announcement by Chikane was that the Scorpions stay in the NPA, but report politically to the ministry of safety and security.
That's what we were told.

And the ANC disagrees with that?
Yes, of course. The ANC resolution is clear on this matter: the Scorpions must move to the SAPS.

Didn't the former president of the ANC show the Khampepe report to the party or the NEC?
No, he didn't.

Are you blaming him?
No, in his wisdom ... but any way the Khampepe Commission's recommendations are now history.

Will dissolving the Scorpions in any way affect the trial of Jacob Zuma?
No, how does it affect the trial? We are not banning any prosecutors from doing their work. If there is a case against Jacob Zuma, or anybody, let these people put that case.

It is not in our interest to interfere with the judiciary. It is not in our interest to interfere with the legal processes that are afoot now.

With acknowledgements to Adriaan Basson and Mail and Guardian.


The ANC and Nyanda have no idea, no clue, no logic, no integrity.

Just expediency.

And haste.

*1      This is where it starts, but not where it ends.